snousle: (badger)
[personal profile] snousle
A little perspective on the Obama/Warren situation might be had by reviewing Abraham Lincoln's relationship to slavery and abolitionism. Some choice quotes:

Lincoln... never put his antipathy for slavery ahead of his allegiance to the Constitution... While the common goal of abolitionists was to put an end to slavery everywhere, Lincoln ran for president in 1860 on a platform that promised to leave slavery undisturbed in the states where it already existed...

Perhaps in even starker contrast to most abolitionists, Lincoln did not believe that slaveholders were inherently evil. He argued, rather, that they were, like their Northern counterparts, merely products of their environment...

For Lincoln, the agitation and moral posturing of the abolitionists constituted the wrong approach in a democratic society, because it was ultimately incompatible with majority rule.


What a fucking sell-out, eh?

Date: 2008-12-19 05:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] winstonthriller.livejournal.com
Where is that link supposed to go?

Date: 2008-12-19 05:27 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snousle.livejournal.com
Oops, it is now fixed.

Date: 2008-12-19 06:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bigredpaul.livejournal.com
The slaves weren't just sitting around, hoping to be freed, Tony, neither, though. Escapes and uprisings were always something going on. You're mixing up the slaves with the abolitionists.

Date: 2008-12-19 06:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snousle.livejournal.com
I am not mixing up anything, in fact I'm not even saying anything beyond pointing towards an interesting article. But I knew people would be putting words in my mouth before I even posted this.

If I were to draw a conclusion from this, it's that the road to getting what you want is not always the most direct one, and those that demand justice and the ones that can actually make it happen are not necessarily the same people.

Date: 2008-12-19 06:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bigredpaul.livejournal.com
What a fucking sell-out, eh?

I guess you didn't say that, then.

I think it's silly to suggest that the abolitionists were unsuccessful in ending slavery. It was their protests and agitation that helped get Lincoln nominated and elected. Lincoln wasn't even on the ballot in the South, and the Republicans didn't try to campaign there, or to convert non-republicans.

The point I'm making is, though, is that every time a progressive activist protests, the center moves to the left a little bit, which is why we have to protest everything we don't like in this new administration. Progressives worked too hard to get Obama elected to just celebrate and give up now.

Date: 2008-12-19 07:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snousle.livejournal.com
I guess you didn't say that, then.

A throw-away line with very little content, other than the sentiment that calling Obama a sell-out on something as trivial as the Warren invocation is extremely premature.

I think it's silly to suggest that the abolitionists were unsuccessful in ending slavery.

What does "unsuccessful" mean? Obviously, their goals were achieved, and they had considerable influence in that process, it's just that the decisive act was made by a president who didn't hew to their immediate demands, and who recognized that effective politics involves distasteful compromises.

The proper target for protest is Warren, not Obama. I think Obama is going about things pretty much the right way. He might even have done us a big favor by putting Warren in the spotlight, making him a better target for criticism.

Date: 2008-12-19 08:59 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bigredpaul.livejournal.com
Lincoln would not have been elected to office without the abolitionists, I would say that is what made them successful. Lincoln knew that the South would secede, because he hoped that they would not. He didn't want them to, of course, but there was no talk of compromise by the South, and almost immediately after he was elected but before he took office, the 7 states of the Deep South seceded and the CSA formed.

Warren is also a target of criticism, but Obama is rightfully criticized for this silly decision as well. There's a big protest outside his church this weekend - you should go!

Date: 2008-12-20 09:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] barbarian-rat.livejournal.com
A good article.
Many people believe that the American Civil War was fought over slavery. Further down in that article it refers to it being about secession/Unionism, that is a more accurate reason for the war.


What's in a name?

Date: 2008-12-21 08:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ursine1.livejournal.com
The American Civil War here in Spain is referred to as the "War of Secession".

Chuck

Date: 2008-12-21 04:28 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] backrubbear.livejournal.com
There were other economic factors for the secession as well. The industrial North was rather bullying about where the raw materials from the South should go and for how much.

Re: What's in a name?

Date: 2008-12-21 06:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] barbarian-rat.livejournal.com
Indeed, an apt name.

Date: 2008-12-21 06:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] barbarian-rat.livejournal.com
There were a great number of factors that brought on the war, including trade, as you mention.
Have you read Battle Cry of Freedom by McPherson? It gives a very good overview of the various issues that came to a head with secession and war.

Date: 2008-12-22 05:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gloeden.livejournal.com
Ah, who cares?
I mean, I know some people care.
But they're stupid. And wasting time on inconsequential targets.
Goddamn but some of my fellow liberals really tick me the fuck off sometimes.

Date: 2008-12-23 08:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] backrubbear.livejournal.com
I haven't read that one. The last time I did any serious reading on the matter was back in college and I spent almost as much time on early Michigan/Canadian issues. :-)

The last time I did some wikipedia stumbling, the matter seemed to have much of the coverage that I recalled from my college reading with perhaps a bit better focus on post-reconstruction political issues.
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