snousle: (takoguma)
[personal profile] snousle
I've had a few people lately remark on my lack of American citizenship. I agree, after living in a country for more than fifteen years it is not an unreasonable question.

I have given it a lot of thought. It wouldn't compromise my Canadian citizenship, though any risk of that would be a deal-breaker. On the other hand, while it is not much of a fudge to take the US oath of citizenship while still valuing my Canadian citizenship more highly, it's enough of a fudge to make me think twice. (Poorly-considered youthful recitations of the Pledge of Allegiance taken under duress in childhood may be regrettable but hopefully forgivable.)

After rolling it around in my head for a long time, the number one thing that prevents me from calling myself an American is this:



This puts the US in a place rather different from the Canadian position, which unfortunately was not included on this graph. Canada doesn't exactly shine in this department either, compared to the nations on the left hand side of this graph, and we do have our own oil-rich bible belt with correspondingly Texan attitudes. But on the whole, creationists are decisively in the minority.

Does it matter? In daily life, not really. Not in an immediate, practical sense - although the Republican war on science could very well eliminate funding for some of my own future work. No, it's more of a feeling of dread that comes about when the majority of a country denies something that I not only believe, but which I have verified directly. (At one point, I included my own dog in a cross-species genetic analysis designed to find regions where his DNA was homologous to ours. As much as anyone can be, I am sure we had a common ancestor.)

I obviously don't mean to disparage anyone for being American, whether by birth or by choice, and I don't even have any animosity towards individual creationists. I see them as victims of a toxic intellectual environment. But citizenship for me would be a mostly symbolic gesture, a matter of the heart, and on this level I find it very difficult to embrace a country that cannot converge on the truth. This is not a place where I could ever fit in. True, California is different - I like to call it "Baja Canada" - but it's not California citizenship that's in question here. Should California ever exercise its constitutional right to secede from the Union, I'll be right on board. :-P

It's kind of a strange issue, because in some ways it's a triviality, and in other ways it's the most important thing in the world. Do I really want to get on board with this?

Date: 2010-12-23 07:05 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] p0lecat.livejournal.com
Was listening to the radio this morning and the US has more regulations then Canada now.

Date: 2010-12-23 07:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] broduke2000.livejournal.com
If you were once an animal, you were probably a goat.
I was probably a fish, or a turtle.

Date: 2010-12-23 07:17 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] kevynjacobs.livejournal.com
You're the fortunate one, with the Canadian passport.

Response to the statement…

Date: 2010-12-23 08:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ursine1.livejournal.com
I would like to see a similar graph in regarding to climate change. Probably the US would be the last one on the right. Also be nice to know the correlation of those "false" believers. As you might expect, people here in Spain cannot understand why so many in the US are "tan estúpido".

Chuck

Re: Response to the statement…

Date: 2010-12-23 09:42 am (UTC)
ext_173199: (StupidDemons)
From: [identity profile] furr-a-bruin.livejournal.com
Sometimes I think it would take nothing less than orbital mind control lasers to excise The Stupid from this country.

Date: 2010-12-23 01:57 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] thornyc.livejournal.com

Except if we made them, expect them to malfunction. You may be zapped, too!

Date: 2010-12-23 04:27 pm (UTC)
ext_173199: (Vorvon: Laughing)
From: [identity profile] furr-a-bruin.livejournal.com
But if I was in charge of the mind-control message, being zapped would have no effect on me because it would be positions I already hold. "Believe in science: creationism, intelligent design and global climate change denial are all lies. Vote for politicians who support science, unions and the well being of the working and middle classes and are willing to make the very rich pay their fair share."

Or something like that, anyway.

Date: 2010-12-23 09:19 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sierrabiker.livejournal.com
I often wish i was born in Canada like my dad. Obviously there has been a brain drain away from the US.

Date: 2010-12-23 09:34 am (UTC)
ext_173199: (IntelPolitics)
From: [identity profile] furr-a-bruin.livejournal.com
Can't blame you a bit, my friend. If I were to find out that my distant ancestry somehow gave me the right to claim Danish or Norwegian citizenship (my last name is anglicized from a Danish surname) allowing me to become a dual citizen, I'd do it in a flash.

"Baja Canada" - I like that. Of course, I've been a fan of Ernest Callenbach's concept of "Ecotopia" ever since I discovered the novels, so... ;)

Date: 2010-12-23 12:07 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sskroeder.livejournal.com
Seeing that graph, I'm actually surprised that we have 1/5th of our citizens in the Not Sure/False block and I wonder where they have found those respondents if not in darkest outskirts of Jutland...
I would have thought that the number for that block would be in the 5% range, not at 20%...

Still, most ethnic Danes are members of the Peoples Church of Denmark, although they only set foot in church once or twice a year, so I think it's more of a cultural issue than a religious one.

But if one were to make a statement about the World only being approx 6.000 years old and that man didn't evolve from other primates, I think the response here in Denmark would be to pat them on the shoulder in a forgiving manner, say "It's OK" and let them return to their La-La-Land inspired reality they've made for them selves ;-D

Date: 2010-12-24 01:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oscarlikesbugsy.livejournal.com
American? Hell, some days I would like to disown my species...

Date: 2010-12-24 02:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] albear-garni.livejournal.com
Americans can be VERY stupid - see tbrough's latest post on Barney Frank...

Date: 2010-12-24 04:56 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com
See again I think this misses the point. Creationists are for the most part intellectually average, more or less. They are seeking to give meaning to something that science can only describe, not explain. Science is not ontology, and should never be, but human beings are wired to construct ontologies. When Modernism was able to supply an ontology (Onward and Upward! Progress!) to complement science, then science was popular. Now religion is the only one offering an ontology.

Date: 2010-12-24 05:14 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snousle.livejournal.com
When Modernism was able to supply an ontology

This does not make sense under my understanding of ontology. Science is pretty clear about its foundations in this regard. I think the word you want is "purpose".

But regardless of that, I would not have this concern if there were not such dramatic differences between countries on this question. The domination of creationism is anything but inevitable - the US is an exceptional case, so general observations about human nature aren't sufficient to explain it.

Date: 2010-12-24 05:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com
Whatever you want to call that thing that gives people a sense of why things are as they are.

This is particularly applicable to the USA because Progress was the organizing principle of the last century there. Now it's gone, with nothing to take its place.

Date: 2010-12-24 05:34 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snousle.livejournal.com
That's a very interesting suggestion... I will look into it further.

Date: 2010-12-24 05:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] bitterlawngnome.livejournal.com
LOL

OK

hope you have a great hols.

Date: 2010-12-24 07:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jstregyr.livejournal.com
snousle writes: "The domination of creationism is anything but inevitable - the US is an exceptional case..."

Hmmm... gives new meaning to the phrase American Exceptionalism...

Date: 2010-12-24 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oscarlikesbugsy.livejournal.com
you might also get a kick out of this:

http://abcnews.go.com/CleanPrint/cleanprintproxy.aspx?1293217975370

People feel better after *knowingly* taking placebos.

The mind is a powerful thing.

Date: 2010-12-25 05:54 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Egad! Only 40% of the US believe that is true! That is shockingly low.

Date: 2010-12-27 03:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gloeden.livejournal.com
I think of all your personal revelations this is the one that surprises me the most.
I'm going to have to take some time to digest this new fact. I hope I'm a man enough to not just fall back on my deeply (righteous) ingrained hatred for what I will now in future politely call our Northern neighbors.
To no longer think of you and your kind as mere hockey-addled raiders, seeking to steal our jobs, woman, and attempt to replace our sacred convenience store institutions with Tim Hortons.
I suppose knowing this about you will force me to confront my bigotry. Slowly, I think, I will be able to see you as not just deserving of my (grudging)tolerance but as a fellow (if not completely equal) human being.

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